Loading ...I’ve long been suspicious buying frags sight-unseen. The pictures are always often biased. You can’t tell what you’re getting.
There’s an e-tail store who has been running sales for $10 (CDN)/frag for a while now. They seem to pop up every month or so, stay for a month, then pop up again. I wouldn’t say that they’re a ‘sale’ at all, but a regular part of their sales tactic. That’s neither here nor there. I bit the bullet and placed an order. I ordered 12 frags, mostly SPS with a few LPS and zoanthids thrown in for good measure.
I picked up the order about two weeks ago and I wanted to share the results.
First, the positives: there were no parasites that I’ve seen so far. No red bugs, AEFW (acro eating flat worms), nudis or bad snails. And, um, I wasn’t stabbed that day.
The not so positives: when a lack of parasites in your coral order is the only positive, there’s some real problems.
“I got’choo the best in dried coral! Just add water and watch them colour up!”
Here’s the problem with cheap frags; they’re cheap. I’m not talking about the quality of the coral, but the rest of the product. When you’re making $10 from a frag, how much effort are you going to put into the frag? Quality frags are not cut’n'sell. Not unless you want to be known as a chop-shop. A quality frag should show new growth since it was fragged. That takes *AT THE MINIMUM* two weeks. Four is better. Eight is even better. See where I’m going here? There’s no way you can sell a frag that’s been growing in a system for two months for the low, low price of $10. It’s eaten up that much in calcium!
There’s effort fragging. Water testing, cleanup, general system maintenance, water changes. If you’re an online store, there’s website maintenance, hosting fees. The only way to turn a profit with $10 frags is to make them as cheap as possible. Take a large colony, hack off 40 pieces and sell them for $10 a pop. That’s a lose-lose proposition for the coral and the consumer. When it comes to coral, life is cheap at $10. Who cares if a $10 frag dies? It’s cheap to replace.
The retailer is the only winner since he pockets $10. Who cares about a reputation when you’re selling pieces of it off at $10 each?
So, here’s what I got with my order. One frag RTN’ed before I got it home (that means my 12 frags are down to 11). I got frags that had been cut the day before or later. The flesh underneath the the super glue was still alive. That’s how new they were.
Here’s some photographic evidence taken almost two weeks later, so you can see a bit of growth. The frags were in such bad shape that I didn’t want to take them out of the water to get photos. A couple of weeks in my aquarium has them in better shape, but I’m still not seeing the polyp extension that I do with other colonies. And colour? These corals are lucky to have any colour at all.
Still little to no encrusting. I think these poor frags needed to recover from their trip before they could even think about growth. At least the tissue under the super glue has died off. Note the rough tips on the first frag.
To contrast, here’s some $25 frags I bought from a friend of mine.
Think $10 frags are still worth buying? I think the value I received for my additional $15 is evident. Quality is worth paying for.
One last point. I’m not talking about stores that have the occasional sale. There was a sale at my favourite LFS last weekend. I bought these frags for $10 each, normally sell for $20 and up.
Is this a candidate for the Puple Finger of Excellence?
Picture on the site.
What I got.
In the hobby since 2001, and has seen all kinds of fads come and go. As he gets older, Jeff is developing more and more of a conscience towards environmental concerns, especially towards reefs. Currently, he writes from Ontario, Canada, but would rather be snorkeling on a reef.
LOL I was wondering when you guys were going to blog about this guy in light of all the negative press he’s getting on RC and it’s about time! I have never bought anything from this guy figuring he was a hack and bag outfit. Most of the positive feedback i’ve read was always started with “Great Price” which usually means crappy product. You are bang on the money with $10 frags and maybe now this will put this guy out where he belongs.
Great post! I’m hoping the reef community will finally catch and stop buying his $10 frags. I will never buy anything from this person again, I’d rather light my own money on fire and watch it burn!
edit: catch on and stop buying his $10 frags
D’oh
@M007 – I hadn’t ordered from him yet. The RC thread was just timely
@TDF – The problem is more than just one person. If someone can show me that $10 frags are sustainable, then great. As I see it, quality frags cost more than $10.
What’s the shop? Can I find it easily on RC?
<> … I ordered 12 frags, mostly SPS with a few LPS and zoanthids thrown in for good measure. … I picked up the order about two weeks ago and I wanted to share the results.<>
Price always fishes (pardon the pun) in and will continue to do so. The interesting part is that while our local hero is being lambasted on RC there’s been nothing on AP?
M007, its because the admin there runs AP like his own toy and deletes threads on command if he doesn’t like them or if it casts a negative light on his sponsors.
@Daniel B Not necessarily, as it is a Canadian e-tailer. But its been reported on RC that that e-tailer has tried to ship to the US, and failed!
We’re not here to point fingers at one individual, but the practice of cheap terrible frags.
@Daniel – I don’t want to name names and send traffic to the person I bought the frags from.
@M007 – I don’t agree with the practice of coddling sponsors. If a board wants to maintain integrity, then it needs to get tough on sponsors who rip off customers. You can’t say that your sponsors are the best and recommend them above others when they’re putting out a terrible product.
Man! those $25. frags look sweet!!
ksalt
They are pretty sweet.
@ksalt – yeah. They’re not bad
I don’t know if we speak of the same person but I’ve been happy to be honest. I always go pick them out myself. I haven’t had a bad experience so I can’t complain, sorry guys!
I took Ksalt advice and let any frags encrust on the plug before I trade/sale now, and I do realize the benefit of that, and yes there all ready now
@Mark – If I have to go pick up my frags, why are they sold mail order?
@ Jeff – I haven’t been brave enough to try mail order from anywhere when it comes to live stuff. I’d rather see it. I can only speak for the frags I picked up. I guess I would expect more from mail order too since you don’t have the option to look it over completely.
The latest frag shop opened up almost right beside that famous “$10 frag shop”
The latest price is $8 a frag LoL
Pretty soon, we will have penny frags that consist only of single polyps.
been there … done that …
this editorial is well presented and hopefully, we will all learn not to support such efforts. Secondly, i cannot imaging how many LFS stay in business when we run out and buy stuff just because its $5 or $10 cheaper !!!! We spend thousands on overpriced skimmers and reactors.
support your LFS, let these guys go
m2c
until I learn the secret handshake at the lfs, this is still my best option, and best selection IMO. I’ve watched people in front of me pay cash and get no tax, then when it’s my turn I’ve got to pay tax. Friend of the stores always get first picks. See it from my point of view as someone who is new to the hobby. I hope you don’t see me as an a-hole for having a different point of view, but I always support the people that treat me well. I got to shop with you guys to get the deals I guess!!
don’t hate me, because I’m a big fan of this blog site, lol.
p.s. that bali tri color is exactly as pictured. no purple finger trust me. I have one but I put it too high and the color faded but it’s coming back just as purple as before. you welcome to come check it out.
@Mark – Of course other opinions are welcome. And of course, I’m not just talking about ONE fragger here. $10 frags are bad in general.
The ‘friend of the LFS’ thing sucks…until you’ve joined the club. All I do to become a friend is hit a store over and over again, introduce myself, have someone introduce me or just generally ask a bunch of questions. At my favourite store, he now knows me by name and doesn’t bat a lash when I haggle a bit on pricing. I also don’t try and barter him down to the lowest possible price. He needs to make a living too.
It’s not just about getting the best deals. Sometimes the ‘best deal’ is getting to buy something before anyone else. Even if it is at an inflated price. But, that’s how those killer pieces get distributed.
Actually, you’ve given me an idea on a blog post. Thanks!
… the problem is not with $10 frags, it’s about people’s expectations …
$10 frags are like buying stuff from dollar store, $60 frags are like buying it from premium shops LV. Most people expect their frags to be around $25-30 before this $10 frag hits, somewhere along the lines of “The Bay” or “Canadian Tire”.
Customers are expecting to receive good quality & excellent service expected from LV store from dollar store paying $10 frags. Of course it is not going to happen … and now they are pissed.
Not that I support this practice but just like the dollar stores and knock-offs, it fills a certain market void especially in the newbies.
@Hubert – the problem *IS* with $10 frags. Like I said in the post it cheapens the life and affects the stores who can’t afford to sell $10 frags. There’s more reasons, but those are the big two.
Support your LFS!
@Jeff I don’t see dollar stores getting out of business, do you? Accept the facts that there is always going to be $10 frags and $60 frags. Those LFS that are selling $30 frags should make sure theirs don’t die in a few days, that’s where the added value is. I see retailers b!tching about walmarts stealing their business daily, it is going to stay once it sets the precedence.
@Hubert – Dollar stores aren’t hacking off a piece of an animal and claiming its something it’s not. My point about cheapening life still stands.
@Jeff business is business, doesn’t matter it is livestock or not, same economic pressure and consumer spending pattern flourish. I don’t see you opposing $40 coral colonies.
$40 coral colonies weren’t hacked off a bigger piece of coral 20 minutes before they were sold to me.
Doesn’t matter, it’s $10 frags, you get what you paid for. Or you expect to buy LV quality handbags at dollar store? What’s so hard to understand.
The guys that are selling $40 corals also put some of your LFS out of business, so why are you supporting it? This is the spending pattern I am talking about. It just happened that now the $8/$10 frag guy start to come on to take on the $40 coral guy LOL
What’s hard to understand?!?! The life that’s thrown away so someone can claim he has the cheapest frags. This is not a matter of Wal Mart having the cheapest diapers, this is a living breathing being that’s being hacked apart for the cheapest possible frag.
If $10 frags were sustainable, great. However, evidence has shown us otherwise.
I don’t give a shit if it is business and it’s about profit. There’s a morality to it that some people are clearly missing. I don’t understand why you’re missing my point.
Why aren’t children allowed to work in factories anymore? They work for cheap.
children are working in factories everyday, especially from those CORAL EXPORTING countries you support greatly. JUST NOT YOURS
$40 corals are not sustainable either if you look at it on the long run, I see your point but I also see a conflict of interest.
…and I don’t want $10 frags in my country either. We need regulations in place.
To be fair, my experiences with frags from this place has been pretty much the same as those from others or LFS.
I don’t see the problem here. You get what you pay for. This is pretty close to a chop shop. I have been pretty pleased with my purchases and most have survived and grown nicely. Never shipped with him though.
Jeff of all the fights of morality I fail to see this one as valid. Reef keeping in general is unmoral….but we do it.
Darryl,
We all should know in some way that reef keeping is immoral. But, there are a lot of things that reefers find out or learn due to trial and error reefkeeping. Things that even marine biologists can’t find in lab tests. So in a immoral way, we are progressing the knowledge, conservation, awareness, etc, etc.
As for the 10$ frags, Jeff does have a valid point. You still have to care for the coral that you are selling. Having 10$ frags doesn’t really strike me as caring. That is the point of this story. Allowing living organisms to be treated as toilet paper. That’s not good enough.
I don’t know about you Vlad but I have never wiped my butt with a $10 bill. Would it be better if he sold them for $20? I would have a different tone if I didnt find most of these frags to live and do well. They are not encrusted and maybe have not been in his system for long but again you get what you pay for….strike that $10 for some of the frags I’ve gotten is pretty good value considering the crazy mark up of some LFS.
Again never shipped with this guy always picked up. I like to view what I’m buying.
@Darryl – how is reefkeeping immoral?
Darryl, I think you missed my point with my toilet paper analogy. To us, toilet paper is a very cheap material that humans have no regard for except for wiping you know what. I consider 10$ frags as such. A disregard for life. A disrespect for the hobby and its good reef keepers. If I lose a 10$ frag, I can just buy another. Its cheap right? Who cares if I lose the frag, I can easily buy another. That is where the problem lies.. not the ability to buy another, but the ability to waste life.
Jeff reefkeeping is immoral in every way unless you only keep tank raised clowns and corals and man made rock (which really cement is taken from the ocean). Also think of the waste of materials and electricity to run a tank. To be fair it’s very grey because we (especially North Americans) waste so much. One way to look at it is in general does reef keeping help or hinder the actual reef. When I see the amount of corals and fish and rock being pulled from mother nature I would say it doesnt do much good and does a lot of bad.
As for the argument for a disregard for life. Personally I don’t like seeing anthing die and will try my hardest to avoid that situation. Some could care less even if they spent $100 on a frag. Money and morals are all relative really. The pope thinks it’s immoral
to wear a condom….me I thinks not.
@Darryl – I agree with you…on the surface.
But, how much has our understanding of the ocean grown because of the hobby? Here’s a basic example: our tanks going up a few degrees kills the corals in our tanks. So, what happens when the ocean’s temperature increases a few degrees? What other things have you learned? What have you taught your kids? That understanding will mean a wider understanding of what we’ve done to our planet and how we can help fix it.
Morals are extremely personal. That many people base their moral centre around religious principals is preposterous. Having said that, I think it’s time for a moral centre to be built around our hobby. What guidelines do you have?
Jeff….I know you mean well so this is good. The only problem I see with the article is that I’m not sure why a $10 frag is more immoral then anything else we do. Religion….oh we should not start on that one.
I’ll leave with one thought. What if everyone who spent probably billions worldwide to keep cative marine aquariums spent that money on conservation efforts. Imagine a world like that. That is an unrealistic rainbow. Of course we would need to know what we are doing with our conservation dollars so eco tours of the reef for everyone.
I’m overtired this morning, so bear with me.
$10 is just a number. It could be $8 or $12. $10 was the price of the frags I got and I’m using that number as a line in the sand.
I don’t believe it’s possible for a retailer to make a profit selling frags responsibly. By ‘responsibly’ I mean, cutting the frags, letting them grow out and mature. Coral takes a decent amount of hydro to maintain. Does $10 cover the cost of keeping a frag for a month or two while it matures? I don’t know. I don’t THINK so, but to be honest, I haven’t spent any time at all figuring out what it would cost to have a frag mature.
I spent some time with Dayne (for those of you who don’t know Dayne – he’s one of the best reef keepers in Toronto) and he said he’s stopped selling frags since they’ve dropped in price. It’s simply not worth his time. What do you think he’d say about $10 frags?
Now, keep in mind that I’m making a distinction between hobbyist and a retailer. A hobbyist does it for the love of the hobby, while a retailer sells frags to make a living (or supplement his living). I don’t care what the hobbyist sells his frags for (as long as he’s not selling chop shopped corals). That’s his business and probably doesn’t care if he’s not making his money back from his frags. Businesses selling chopped frags is different. I expect professional frags from a business. Selling chopped coral that won’t live a week isn’t professional. I don’t shop at Wal-Mart because I think they’re unethical and I only know they’re unethical because people speak out against them. I’d like to hope some people read this and this has some influence on their buying habits.
On your second point, I don’t think everyone in the world would ever keep reef tanks. There’s only a small group of people who have the interest and aptitude.
But, think about the influence you have. Everyone on my street knows me as the ‘fish guy’ and bunch of them have come over to take a look at my tank. The kids in the neighbourhood have all come to see my tank and they all ask questions. They probably (hopefully) won’t grow up to have a tank, but they’ve had experience understanding the oceans just a bit better. Not bad for living in the landlocked great white north, huh?
There’s a great quote which I can’t find right now, but it goes something like “We can’t love something until we understand it”. If everyone with a tank would become an advocate for the oceans, we’d have a huge sphere of influence. I think that understanding is worth the trade-off in hydro usage.
I think you have a problem with unhealthy frags more then the fact that they are $10. I can only speak from my experience but although they are small and freshly cut (which accounts for the small price tag) they have turned out fairly well for me in the past. So as far as the price goes, weither or not he makes any money is none of my business. If he was killing corals in the process of his business (which all LFS do) then that is an issue. If you recieved poor corals it doesnt matter if they are 5bucks or 50 I would be pissed too.
So in the end I hope you can understand that I still don’t see this as a valid argument (to say that the price has anything to do with it). I think we need to agree to disagree.
“On your second point, I don’t think everyone in the world would ever keep reef tanks. There’s only a small group of people who have the interest and aptitude.”
If you go back and read what I said it was along the lines of…if everyone who kept saltwater aquariums decided to instead take that money and invest it in conservation efforts (which I’m sure we are talking billions) imagine the good it would do. Sharing your tank with the neighbors just doesnt doesnt come close to off setting the damage to the reefs that you (or I) create from reef keeping habbit IMO. Have you ever seen a slew of sick fish that never get sold in a LFS..now that is immoral..when something dies for nothing. No offence I’m as guilty (or more) then anyone. The world is an F’d up place.
To me any pet keeping is immoral from pet’s perspective.
I don’t really agree with analogy of pricing of frags vs morality of frag sales. $10 vs $35 for the same frag, the price difference shouldn’t be the deciding factor to declare one place is *BAD* vs the other *professional*. It’s up to the buyers to decide.
“Selling chopped coral that won’t live a week isn’t professional” – but what about chopped corals that do live long and thrive? Like the ones I have from this place? This statement is simply incorrect, and gives readers wrong impression of this place.
I have no personal relationship with the person who runs this business, but I felt the article unnecessarily harsh on him and it sounds more like simple bashing on personal experience and opinions (why?). As for me, I would still purchase frags in the future from this place, but I’ll probably be visiting the place to pick frags in person. I have seen lots that are encrusted and healthy in the store.
I never treat $10 frags as disposable frags. Some may have that mindset but the amount I pay does not determine how I care for it.
I feel that the article is trying to point out the fact that
* corals are chopped intentionally to be sold as frags, rather than fragged from grown out colonies (much like trimmings of plants)
* frags are shipped before they are ready to survive their trips through shipping process, thus frequent failures on shipped frags (not sure how often this occurs, but that’s the impression I have from various posts)
but for me $10 frags have been great simply because – a newbie hobbyist can experiment and learn before commiting on more exotic corals – saves both hobbyist’s money and reef as failures only cost the frag, not whole colony
Can the issues be brought up to the seller and improve the quality of product sold? Even if that means increase in price.
Availability of lower priced frags make this hobby much more approachable for new reefers. This hobby does require serious commitment to be successful, but lower prices will make the hobby more popular and bring in other possibilities and improvements (more coral farming?)
Some comments on the photos
- If I have a friend who can benefit from frags I have, I’d give them free, not charge $25. Regardless, the article gives wrong impression that you can readily buy frags of those quality for $25 (seems like it’s been months since they were fragged). Doesn’t sound like a fair comparison.
- I know which LFS those other frags are from. I frequently visit the place so I know what’s available. Those that go on sale are usually the ones people are not willing to pay high price for them. I don’t see any that have colors and shapes (relatively rare ones) from these sales. During this sale, I looked very hard to find ones I liked, and the most I could find was just one frag. Again, not a fair comparison.
- I have the exact same frag, bali tricolor. While it does not look anything close to the frag in photo, it has grown and encrusted, with purplish body and greenish tips as in the photo. I feel that it might actually look better if I had better lighting system. Regardless, you never get the exact color other places advertise either, so I’m not sure what the issue is with that. You take a frag out of water they all look ugly. I don’t think the photo was retouched by any means.
I’d like to hear/see more updates on those 11 frags, and photos inside the tank with full lighting on. That would be of more interst for many readers here.
Well said conix67! I just want to point out that I was at a lfs the other day, and all the frag we’re $30 each and not even encrusted. One was not even mounted. There is no way i’m going to pay $20 more for the same thing and limited selection. As soon as you find one that a little more rare the price of that frag will go up. I’ll pay $10 any day for such a large selection of frags. I’ve only been in this hobby for 4-5 years now, and if I can keep these frag alive and looking great I’m sure you guys can too.
I’ll be very quick and brief on this very issue. High end corals as 10$ frags vs beginner corals as 10$ frags is what we should be looking at more. I have not met anyone that can sell a high end or middle road coral at 10$ a piece when it requires detailed care. Now as for beginner corals, you can do them at 10$ as they will grow and encrust much faster and easier then other demanding corals.
In other words, your 10$ higher ended corals will not receive the same care as they should be.
Vlad, how exactly do you classify “high end” corals? What comes to my mind are -
- Relatively Expensive
- Rare
- Nice color and shape
- Slow growth
- Difficult to care for
I would say a high end coral must be all of above. For example, no reefer would care if the coral is rare (thus expensive), grows slowly and difficult to keep in home aquarium but is ugly. I’m no expert in identifying *high end* corals, but seeing that most are undemanding as a newbie reefer like myself can keep them in relatively good shape (not true when I had my nano though), I believe at least most are non-high end corals.
My point is, if the frag was priced higher, will it receive a better care? Any decent reefer, newbie or expert, will try his/her best to keep their coral healthy. I feel that how much care coral receive will be irrelevant to the cost to purchase one.
“I’ve long been suspicious buying frags sight-unseen. The pictures are always often biased. You can’t tell what you’re getting.”
This is true for almost any e-tailers. I’ve seen conditions of frags from other e-tailers in US, through someone’s journal, and they seemed no different, but only priced much higher.
I have visited this store before. The frag tanks were full of frags, literally hundreds. The view was breathtaking, as I had never seen frags (or corals) of such variety in any store before. They all looked healthy with colors like they were seen on photos of the site. The rest were like any frag purchase experience from any local reefers, asking questions, browsing display tank, being offered of frags from display tank, etc. At least I walked away from the place with good impressions that the owner was offering good prices because his operating costs were lower.
Maybe I’m such a newbie that I just don’t see things well enough to realize I’m being tricked, but I would say I’m not a fool.
High end corals would be those which are very hard to find, extremely difficult to nurture, and require a lot of care. The price is determined based on the care it needs, the strength of growth, and etc. Higher ended corals do not necessarily mean the most beautiful.